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Post by razzthekid on Jul 20, 2010 12:16:36 GMT -5
SPOILERS BELOWIf I had to choose, I'd like to think that the ending was reality. Just because I'd hate to think that Cobb's forever lost in the dream world. That's a bit tragic.  I like to think it was reality too, but i'm not saying it is for definite. Obviously everyone will have there own interpretation. A few things that i thought i noticed, that may have hinted he was in dream world though: SPOILERS!!! ~When on the phone to his children early on in the film, it seemed that the voice of his daughter, Philippa, sudddenly changed and got much older. Leo asked to talk to Grandma and she replied something along the lines of "She doesn't want to talk" and even Leo went "Philippa is that you?". One of the guys i was with noticed that too but my brother didn't. Maybe it was just me! ~It doesn't say how long ago his wife died and how long he'd been away from his children, but surely they would've changed slightly. I had a feeling it was more than a couple of months- yet they looked exactly the same when he goes home again. ~When he was being chased by the guys, just after he met up with Tom Hardy, and he ended up in this really narrow corridor, that gradually got narrower as it went on- that's a bit dreamy ain't it? Oh and the thing about the totem- i just thought that seen as they made such a big deal about the whole, "Don't let anyone else hold or touch your totem because only you should know it's proportions", that once Cobb had Mal's it would defeat the purpose of it and it wouldn't work the same. Maybe not though.  SPOILERS BELOWI agree, Kim. I was also a bit confused at times with the dreams. I think the kick is supposed to wake them at each dream layer, and with each higher dream layer, your time goes by faster than in the lower layer. I think with the strong sedatives, the characters can't die in the dream and wake up. When they die (as in Saito's and Fischer's cases), they go to limbo, which was the last dream layer Cobb and Ariadne were at (and the one Cobb and Mal created while they were in limbo). I think, LOL. I agree. A second viewing would definitely clear up any residual confusions.  It was fun to try to figure it out as you go along though. And of course, I agree about Joseph!  I loved that action sequence during the hotel dream. It was quite visually stunning, and Joseph was amazing.  Yeah, i understand all those general things about dying and the kick and all but when they were putting them all to use in the 3 different layers it got a bit muddled. Like Fischer- he was dead in the second layer of the dream and then they brought him back to life at the same time as the kick, and he was in the third layer with Ariadne, Cobb and Mal....How did that work exactly? Oh and how does killing yourself in the limbo part suddenly bring you back to reality? |
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Post by punctuator on Jul 21, 2010 1:58:03 GMT -5
SPOILERS BELOWIf I had to choose, I'd like to think that the ending was reality. Just because I'd hate to think that Cobb's forever lost in the dream world. That's a bit tragic. That's the thing: I think he's being guided back to reality. He's just not quite there yet at the end. But he's making progress: he's moving past Mal, he's working through his guilt, all that stuff. He's not trapped forever; he's not quite out, that's all. That's why I started thinking of it as Intervention. As for Fischer's "resolution": [SPOILERS, YES.] It's one thing for him to realize that his father really did love him and wanted him to "be his own man." It's quite another thing for him to break up his father's company in order for him to be his own man. Even if he wants to do his own groovy thing, if he's a decent guy, he should still feel compelled to answer to his thousands of employees and the customers who depend on the services his company provides. So become the world's greatest philanthropist, Robert. Or pull a Bruce Wayne and go globetrotting. Pick some fights, become a ninja with a bat complex, raise some hell. But keep in mind, while you're swinging through the canyons of lower Manhattan on the webbing you concocted in your billionaire hobby-lab, With great power comes great responsibi-- Oh, dear. |
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Post by iamthemaxx on Jul 21, 2010 8:13:02 GMT -5
Hahahaha, you even manage to inject humor when your dissenting. This place would not be the same w/o you. So glad you're still here Punctuator.
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Post by TT on Jul 21, 2010 11:30:32 GMT -5
As for Fischer's "resolution": [SPOILERS, YES.] It's one thing for him to realize that his father really did love him and wanted him to "be his own man." It's quite another thing for him to break up his father's company in order for him to be his own man. Even if he wants to do his own groovy thing, if he's a decent guy, he should still feel compelled to answer to his thousands of employees and the customers who depend on the services his company provides. So become the world's greatest philanthropist, Robert. Or pull a Bruce Wayne and go globetrotting. Pick some fights, become a ninja with a bat complex, raise some hell. But keep in mind, while you're swinging through the canyons of lower Manhattan on the webbing you concocted in your billionaire hobby-lab, With great power comes great responsibi-- Oh, dear. I laughed so hard at this! You absolutely have a point and you really did bring it across nicely! |
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Post by Kizuna on Jul 21, 2010 14:43:57 GMT -5
Hmm, you know, reading this discussion, as well as just having watched Noah Antwiler/The Spoony One's reviewof the movie (http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/07/19/inception-review/), and I have to agree in some regards how the rules are just "ebb and flowy" and never quite get this consistent explaination. Like Spoony said in his review, I too appreciate how Christopher Nolan actually stimulates the audience to pay attention to the movie and really think about it, but it did get somewhat tedious with trying to follow the multitudes of dream layers and the math behind the timing in them.
As for the ending, I personally believe it was real, but I'm still going to watch this a second time soon to more fully understand stuff I didn't catch (or missed during the one bathroom break).
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Post by punctuator on Jul 25, 2010 3:37:31 GMT -5
*** BIG RAMBLING SPOILERY MESS AHEAD ***
Naw, see-- The Niece (a.k.a. Voice of Reason) went to see it with me (there's a long story about how Inception was supposed to be my Birthday Movie this year, and how Screening Number Two was supposed to be at a theater with a bar, but there was no bar [drat and curses--!], but that's another issue entirely [wait until you receive The Niece's carefully worded Letter of Complaint, oh Theater Chain That Shall Not Be Named]), and now we're absolutely convinced that the whole thing is an effort by Michael Caine (and, quite possibly, Mal) to bring Dom back to reality.
For me, the whole kicker was in that one line, which I misquoted before: "Come back to reality, Dom." Well, if Dom is already in reality (or so he thinks), then why does-- well, let's call him "Dad"-- then why does Dad (who just happens to have taught Dom everything Dom knows, and who feels guilty about Dom using his talents for theft) have to invite him to come back...?
Cobb doesn't trust Mal; "Dad" he trusts.
Why does Arthur not know about Fischer's training, that obvious, glaring boo-boo in Arthur's "research"? Either (a) of course he knows, because he's really working for "Dad" to help Cobb back to reality, and/or (b) Arthur is one of "Dad"'s projections.
Ariadne may seem like Plot-Point Girl at first, asking all the questions we think Nolan wants us to ask, until she quite ably slips into the role of therapist. She literally takes Dom down to the basement to confront his demons (or demon, that being Mal). And, like the good plant she is, she knows how to fix things when they go seemingly irretrievably wrong. "Oh, look, the newbie has a bright idea!" we think. Nope: she's working for the wizard, that being Dad: she knows how to get Dom down to that lower level for that last "I've gotta leave you" meeting with Mal. He says it earlier: "Downward is forward." That's true. Ariadne is driving him forward.
Why does no one recognize Saito for who he is? Even Fischer doesn't seem to know who he is. (Robert may not be that keen on the family business-- but we don't even know that for sure, do we?-- but surely he would recognize his father's one remaining rival.) For that matter, why are we given only a couple of classic Mission: Impossible dossier photos and a few badly mimeographed newspaper blow-ups of Fischer and his father? If these guys were really so powerful, the Inception-world media would be stuffed with scads of stuff on all three of them. (And if it weren't, guys as clever as Arthur and Eames are supposed to be could certainly dig that stuff up.) It's sort of like saying that Fischer is Bill Gates and Saito is Steve Jobs, and they and Cobb and his team have no idea who they are.
(But the Saito-Fischer backstory doesn't matter: the goal is to get Cobb back to reality. I'm about ninety percent convinced that Saito is a member of Dad's team, and I'm about ninety-five percent convinced that Fischer-- if he's not also a member of the D-team-- received his mental training from Dad.)
That would have been an interesting knee-jerk explanation of Fischer's defenses activating in the dream-world, though, and a good reason to keep Saito out of the job: it seems Fischer's subconscious would have a complete shark-smells-blood-in-the-water reaction to Saito's presence.
Mal's final talk with Cobb: You sense that shadowy businessmen are pursuing you around the globe. And-- oh, looky-- they are!
Why, exactly, is the team in on the job? It seems, for instance, that charming rogue Eames would be very interested in precise contractual terms. He seems like the kind of guy who'd want to know exactly how much money he could expect to make. (Arthur says nothing-- nothing whatsoever-- about money or, for that matter, about doing the job for the challenge or out of loyalty to Cobb. We know nothing about his professional motivation.) Yet the movie is two and a half hours long, and we get only one line regarding terms and payments: "He [Cobb] promised me [Drug Guy] his entire share." His entire share of what...? It doesn't matter: the payoff is steering Cobb toward reality.
At first I was irked that we know nothing about Fischer's relationship with his father. Yes, there's the briefly glimpsed clipping that says they've clashed in Sydney; yes, there's the shakedown-scene confession to (fake) Uncle Peter: "One word: 'disappointed.'" That's it.
(For that matter, the Fischers seem to be Australian nationals. [It's right there, on Robert's passport.] Why is Fischer, Sr., being flown to California for burial...?)
But... "As we go deeper into Fischer, we go deeper into you[, Cobb]." (Thank you, Analyst Ariadne, you who carry a chess-piece totem while your team [ostensibly] searches for Bobby Fischer.)
And "My father wanted me to be my own man." Oh, yes, he did, and he does, Mr. Cobb-- errm, Mr. Fischer.
We're not given any details about these shadowy businessmen and their shadowy supposed-megapower corporations. (Again: Fischer's company is that big, and Saito basically has to explain that only his company is keeping Fischer's from becoming a world power? That's the film-script equivalent of saying, "Oh, have you heard of Microsoft...? In this future, where anti-monopoly laws have obviously fallen by the wayside, only my tiny company, Apple, is standing between them and total domination of the personal computer market." Cobb and his team would know this stuff. If it mattered. Which it doesn't, because what matters is guiding Cobb back to reality.)
Why does no one-- even ostensible Plot-Point Girl-- question the morality of what they're about to do to poor Mr. Fischer...? It doesn't matter if, in the end, it amounts to therapy and him seeing (or believing: after all, what he's "seeing" in that "safe"-- air-quotes to taste-- is an unreal, planted idea) that Daddy Fischer really loved him: the act of inception is a deeply insidious form of mental assault that threatens not only Fischer's sanity but (again) his livelihood and the livelihoods of his employees (if not, if his company is really that big, the stability of the global economic market). So why doesn't Ariadne, say, question the right or wrong of what Cobb and his team are about to do? Why? Because it doesn't matter. What matters-- the actual goal of the mission-- is getting Cobb back to reality.
Nuts and bolts: Why can't Cobb get a fake passport (from, say, his master forger, Eames)? Why can't the kids come to him, for a visit, at least? (He seems to be on decent terms with their grandpa, after all.) Why is he so quick to say that going home is "out of the question," when we're given only a few flimsy lines about how "they" think he killed Mal (and when the forensics evidence against him-- pretermitting the idea that she had herself "declared sane" by three psychiatrists-- You can do that--? Wow, I had no idea. All those psychos in St. Peter's would love to know that.-- would be nonexistent: his prints aren't on any of the broken items in the hotel suite, and Mal herself would be bearing no defensive wounds. Not to mention, there'd be no evidence of him killing her on any CCTV systems that might be monitoring the scene, either from outside the hotel, or inside, as part of the house security system.). Why...? Because he's persuaded himself that he can't go home. His guilt is standing in the way.
Nuttier nut-and-bolt: Cobb has no totem of his own. He's using Mal's. He has no marker that really-really shows him really what's (really) real. Really. He and Mal were "experimenting." What if that lack of a totem was what got him, not Mal, trapped "down below"...?
*****
What if it's not real?: that's the idea. That's the inception, and it's been planted in Cobb. Voice of Reason and I are thinking he's stable on Level One. Maybe in the sequel, we'll see how he gets all the way "out"....
*****
That one line: "Come back to reality, Dom." That's it.
*****
Okay, I'm shutting up. Still imagining Fischer swinging on those webs. And picturing Arthur as Nightcrawler now, too. Can we tell Comic-Con is happening this week...?
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Post by punctuator on Jul 31, 2010 0:30:55 GMT -5
Sorry for the double post, but I have a question, and I'm afraid to post it in the wilds of IMDB:
*** SPOILERS ***
When Fischer realizes he's being kidnapped (in the carjacked cab in the rain on Wilshire Boulevard), his "defenses" kick in, and suddenly Our Gang find themselves in the middle of a typical L.A. traffic scenario-- oops-- a traffic-jam-slant-shootout. When they get clear, Arthur asks if Fischer is okay. "He's fine," Eames replies. "Unless he's prone to carsickness."
Okay, then, my question is this: Could Fischer actually be shot or otherwise harmed by his own defensive mental projections? Earlier, Cobb explains to Ariadne that the dreamer's subconscious attacks interlopers much like white blood cells attack an infection. This sounds very "Windows" to a hardcore Mac user, but is Fischer really in danger of being eradicated by his own mental anti-virus software...?
And maybe I'm still stuck on this idea-- question 1.a., I guess-- but wasn't it a Very Bad Ideatm to let Fischer's one remaining business rival turn around in that cab and stick a gun in Fischer's face...? Of course his subconscious would go "ARRRGH!!! ATTACK!!!!"
That would have made an interesting twist: Eames "forging" a dream identity for Saito, so that Saito might move around Fischer's mind without being recognized....
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Post by emma286 on Aug 2, 2010 7:01:11 GMT -5
Also finally got to see this film over the weekend with my partner! Thought it was brilliantly done! Definitely the kind of film I'd have to watch a second time to fully understand it - but for me this is definitely on my 'must purchase' list! I am going to admit one thing here. I was somewhat disappointed Cillian's role didn't turn out to be larger than it was. He was good in it without a doubt! I'm not critisizing his acting ability in the least. But after seeing what he's capable of achieving in other roles - I personally thought his acting talents went a little wasted in this one. The feeling I was left with after the movie came to the end was pretty much just the same as I had after after seeing him in Batman Begins. Too little of a great thing! Still this didn't detract from my appreciation of his performance. or of the film! I thought he gave a great one as always - as also thought the rest of the cast did. This easily gets a 9 out of 10 from me! Further edit: After having read some reviews of this film, as well as taking into account certain things mentioned later in this thread, I've realised there's certain things about the film I didn't pick up on when watching first time round that likely would have altered my initial impressions if I'd taken them in. For now retracting my rating till I've seen this movie again! Will post a proper review later! |
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Post by punctuator on Aug 2, 2010 17:53:30 GMT -5
So... in the end, we're all just supposed to be okay with the brain-rape?
See, if we take the "shallow" view of the plot, that's exactly what it is: one businessman hiring a gang of mercenary thugs to brain-rape that businessman's competitor. That's morally reprehensible, and in my never-humble opinion it's a thoroughly untenable plot-hook. (I don't care if Fischer "needed" this violation to resolve his relationship with his father: it's still a violation, and the resolution it produces is false anyway. This comes very, very dangerously close to many rape fantasies-- "Oh, she wanted it," or even "But Rippner is so hot it that bathroom scene." Yuck.) Which leads us to...
Taking the "deep" view of the plot: It's all in Cobb's head, and it's all an inception on him, to bring him back to reality. While I enjoyed cooking up that conjecture, I resented having to do it. Frankly, writing the script is or was Nolan's job, and it makes me a little queasy thinking of that fellow Leo (we're creative, but we're massively egotistical, too) sitting smugly behind that smirk while people like me scrambled to stitch his story into a morally, thematically, and dramatically acceptable whole.
And he relies on what I like to think of as a "bulletproof theme" to put his plot across. There are certain topics that make a movie practically critic-proof. One is the Holocaust. Ken Loach found another in the form of the Irish Civil War in The Wind That Shakes the Barley. And Nolan shamelessly exploits parental devotion here in Inception. He plays the "kid card"-- oh, Cobb has to get back to his kids! He has to! (Never mind that the kids aren't in any immediate danger, and Grandpa could just bring them for a visit-- if they and their daddy do, in fact, exist in the real world.)-- and suddenly Cobb enjoys carte blanche at a primal level in the viewer's mind. Of course it's okay if he brain-rapes an innocent stranger: it's all for his chiiiildren...!
I never proffered a numerical rating for this. For the suits (and Cillian looking delectably sleek and well-groomed in said suits), Joseph Gordon-Levitt, Tom Hardy, and the overall ambition of the thing, I'm giving it a 4 out of 10. Though the plot was no great brain-twister, Nolan lost me morally and thematically, and I'm fine with not being found.
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Post by emma286 on Aug 3, 2010 2:42:49 GMT -5
As I only skim read through this thread yesterday, realised there's some comments I missed so will respond here! SPOILERS BELOWThis was totally Leo's movie, and he gave a great, heartbreaking performance. I loved the ending -- is it reality or is he still dreaming? I guess it's up to our interpretation -- love it. ;D Agreeing with you on Leo's performance Rukia! Couldn't have said that better myself  And I felt exactly the same as you when it came to the ending. I didn't quite know how to take it either. I thought at the time I must have missed something, as I didn't absorb everything that was going on. But thinking more about it, I think you must be right there! Could Fischer actually be shot or otherwise harmed by his own defensive mental projections? Earlier, Cobb explains to Ariadne that the dreamer's subconscious attacks interlopers much like white blood cells attack an infection. This sounds very "Windows" to a hardcore Mac user, but is Fischer really in danger of being eradicated by his own mental anti-virus software...? And maybe I'm still stuck on this idea-- question 1.a., I guess-- but wasn't it a Very Bad Ideatm to let Fischer's one remaining business rival turn around in that cab and stick a gun in Fischer's face...? Of course his subconscious would go "ARRRGH!!! ATTACK!!!!" You've made a couple of interesting points there Punctuator. On the first (admittedly what I'm about to say could be wrong, because of stuff I missed that I could only pick up upon second viewing)the impression I got from the film is that the worst that happens to anyone (at least in general) when they're attacked in a dream by someone else's subconscious is that they can be hurt/murdered - but this just causes them to wake up in the real world, with no reason for not being able to re-enter their dreams again. So though they might die in a dream, it's just a temporary state of things. I get the idea that even if Fischers subconscious didn't recognise him for who he was and mistook him for an intruder within one of his dreams that's most likely the worst that'd happen to him. Next time he went into a dream everything'd likely just be back to normal. Cobb does his best to persuade Fischer he's in danger to manipulate him into doing what he wants - but at the least I don't think he's ever in any significant danger. Not at the point Cobb first tries to talk him into doing what he wants anyway. On the second point - I'd have to re-watch the film to remember that part! As soon as I have, and if by then you're still interested, I'd be happy to share my thoughts! So... in the end, we're all just supposed to be okay with the brain-rape? Will bear in mind the other points you've made when I watch this movie for the second time. Before I do, not really in the best position to decide whether or not I agree with them, but you've certainly pointed some interesting things out that otherwise wouldn't have occurred to me! Thanks for sharing your views. |
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Post by razzthekid on Aug 3, 2010 14:50:21 GMT -5
You've made a couple of interesting points there Punctuator. On the first (admittedly what I'm about to say could be wrong, because of stuff I missed that I could only pick up upon second viewing)the impression I got from the film is that the worst that happens to anyone (at least in general) when they're attacked in a dream by someone else's subconscious is that they can be hurt/murdered - but this just causes them to wake up in the real world, with no reason for not being able to re-enter their dreams again. So though they might die in a dream, it's just a temporary state of things. I get the idea that even if Fischers subconscious didn't recognise him for who he was and mistook him for an intruder within one of his dreams that's most likely the worst that'd happen to him. Next time he went into a dream everything'd likely just be back to normal. Cobb does his best to persuade Fischer he's in danger to manipulate him into doing what he wants - but at the least I don't think he's ever in any significant danger. Not at the point Cobb first tries to talk him into doing what he wants anyway. I think the point Punctuator was trying to make, though, was that if it was Fischer's subconscious they were in, then surely he wouldn't be in danger from his own projections as they'd know it was his dream. They only respond to intruders who are messing with the dream and changing things. So if they were asking if Fischer was ok then it maybe hinted at the fact that they weren't in his subconscious at all. It could've been Cobb's, as that's the thing everyone is unsure about. Was the whole movie actually an Inception of Cobb's mind and an attempt to bring him back to reality? If it was Cobb's subconsious then his projections would be harmful to Fischer and there would be valid reason for them to be worried about him. I'll let Punctuator clarify if that's what she meant though. I've only seen it once though so i can't be sure. As far as i know i'm heading to see it tomorrow with a friend though, so i'll be keeping a very close eye on everything and looking out for all these things. |
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Post by emma286 on Aug 3, 2010 15:35:50 GMT -5
I think the point Punctuator was trying to make, though, was that if it was Fischer's subconscious they were in, then surely he wouldn't be in danger from his own projections as they'd know it was his dream. They only respond to intruders who are messing with the dream and changing things. So if they were asking if Fischer was ok then it maybe hinted at the fact that they weren't in his subconscious at all. It could've been Cobb's, as that's the thing everyone is unsure about. Was the whole movie actually an Inception of Cobb's mind and an attempt to bring him back to reality? If it was Cobb's subconsious then his projections would be harmful to Fischer and there would be valid reason for them to be worried about him. I'll let Punctuator clarify if that's what she meant though. Ah I see what you're saying there Kim! Many thanks for pointing all that out! Sorry Punctuator if I misunderstood what you were getting at. I wasn't bearing what Kim's said in mind. Those are very good questions! In fact, just reading through them has reminded me of something else that I think here is relevant. The way that Cobbs wife is able to enter into the dream and attack Fischer. Beforehand I put it down to Cobb somehow bringing her in - because of his obsession with her memory. And assumed that though it appeared Fischer was hurt, he couldn't really be. That he'd just passed out because of the shock. But now I'm thinking further, it's also occurred to me it's never once hinted within the film the former is something that happens, and how come Fischer doesn't wake up after Cobbs wife attacks him? Appears to me like indeed they must have been in Cobbs subconscious after all. As can't think of any other likely logical explanation for that! Yet though, if that's the case how come Cobb knew what setting to create for Fischer when they first met... Jeez this is a mind boggle (at least for me!) lol! I really need to see this a second time myself! Hope Kim that you enjoy watching it again tomorrow. I'd be very interested to hear your further thoughts on it after you've next seen it! |
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Post by this bike is a on Aug 21, 2010 13:54:46 GMT -5
Inception left an incredible feeling afterward. I saw it with two friends and it was a pretty silent ride home. Just a mind blow all the way through. And the soundtrack is completely flawless.
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Post by rosebud5 on Nov 13, 2010 17:29:08 GMT -5
this is the first time i saw inception, and it was pretty crazy.... but, when *he* came on, i felt like i was the dreamer!! one word - yum!!
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Post by Cait on Nov 13, 2010 18:55:07 GMT -5
I know what you mean completely. That clean-cut look and the suit just made me melt. Stunning!
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It was fun to try to figure it out as you go along though.
I loved that action sequence during the hotel dream. It was quite visually stunning, and Joseph was amazing. 
And I felt exactly the same as you when it came to the ending. I didn't quite know how to take it either. I thought at the time I must have missed something, as I didn't absorb everything that was going on. But thinking more about it, I think you must be right there! 
